Getting Your Rain Mountain Pup

I wish I had the time and resources to provide everyone interested with a Chinook pup but that just isn't the case. I have a day job and glorious Rain Mountain Chinooks is not a large kennel; it's just my home (and those of some of my friends who are partners in this venture) in the Seattle suburbs. The dogs in our breeding program are pets, either here in my home or near me in the homes of friends and family. Consequently we only breed a litter once every couple years.  Breeding Chinooks is a hobby that has to be fit in around other job, family, and personal demands.

As breeders, our first concern is improving and rebuilding the Chinook population. Hence we breed first for the dogs we want to carry on the Rain Mountain name in future generations.  These are the pups that we plan to keep, who join the kennels of other Chinook breeders, or who go to homes where the family has had pet Chinooks and now has the bug to try showing and breeding.  Not every pup in a litter is a pet quality pup, nor is every pup a show and breeding candidate. We're very proud that Rain Mountain pups have been included in the breeding programs of many other Chinook breeders, both experienced and newcomers AND just as proud of the pups we've produced that have wonderful lives as family pets.  A few things to keep in mind:

Breeding dogs is a lot of work. By the time a litter leaves we are exhausted. We love raising pups though and will continue to do so for many years to come.

Breeding dogs is expensive.  We don't make money on pups.  I've calculated that it costs about $2,000 to raise a litter of eight to ten pups, even after factoring in money from selling pups we don't keep.  The only people who make money raising dogs are the puppy mills.  The rest of us do it out of love for the Chinook.

We can't predict Mother Nature.  We can't predict if we'll have males or females, if their ears will be pricked up on hanging down, if they will have black masks or cream highlights.  We don't know what we'll see in a litter until they are born.  But we do guarantee that every pup will be healthy, happy, and well raised to the best of our abilities.

Not every pup is a pet quality female. For some reason about 75% of the inquiries we get are for pet quality females. I have no idea why. If you only knew! Everyone has their own opinion and every Chinook is different but overall opinion is that female Chinooks are very smart and male Chinooks are big lovey goofs who just want Mom to be happy. There is nothing more pleasant than a loving Chinook boy.

Also we are very discerning about which of our females go into pet homes. One Chinook stud can sire numerous litters but each Chinook brood bitch probably has just two litters in her lifetime. This means that we need more females than males in our overall breeding population. Very few of our female pups are placed in pet homes. Trust us, you'd probably rather have a male Chinook as your family pet than a female. Males tend to be easier to train (in Ginger's very humble opinion) and are just more laid back on average.

This list of questions is also on the Chinook Owners Association website at www.chinook.org.  I've included it here so you can see our answers as well as the questions.

You're very welcome to come by for a visit if you're in the Northwest. But please don't expect a fancy commercial kennel.  Rain Mountain dogs are house pets in suburban Seattle.  Visiting means that you are visiting my home.  The only "kennel" is a fenced backyard with a seldom used pen and a few dog crates that double as furniture.  Visitors are welcome whether we are planning a litter or not.  We love to talk about dogs any time.

Since we all have day jobs during the week (Ginger is a computer nerd and Carie is a dog trainer and behaviorist) please check with us a week or two before you'd like to visit to ensure your visit won't conflict with family responsibilities or dog events out of town.  We'll try to find a good time for you to visit that meets both your schedule and ours. But please keep in mind that we like to spend winter weekends sledding and summer weekends are frequently tied up with dogs shows and enjoying the sunshine.

Sometimes the best way to meet a number of Chinooks all at once is to come along on one of our activities such as a dog show or weight pull.  This way you'll get to meet a variety of Chinooks and their owners.  Most of these events involve a lot of "hurry up and wait" so we usually have plenty of time to talk.  You may even be put to work helping us hold dogs or cups of coffee and tea.  We're a very social bunch and are willing to have a get-together for just about any reason.

If we are placing a pup with a family outside of the Northwest, we always ask that you visit with a Chinook breeder or experienced owner in your area. Likewise if you are getting a pup from a breeder located elsewhere, that breeder may ask you to come by and visit us. We encourage folks in or visiting the Northwest to contact us if you'd like to meet some Chinooks "in the fur."  As the oldest (but not in age!) Chinook owner and breeder on the West Coast, Ginger is a great source of information on all things Chinook. Likewise if you are getting a pup from a breeder located elsewhere, the breeder may ask you to come by and visit us.   It's important that you meet real Chinooks, hopefully more than one, so that you can get a good idea of whether they really are the dog for you. Luckily there is a greater population of Chinooks today than when we first started so no matter where you live we should be able to direct you to Chinooks and their families near by.

Some of the basics we ask of prospective owners are that they have a fenced yard or a secure kennel where the dog can spend time when you can't be with him or her. Let's face it, there are times when you want to put your dog outside so you can mop the floor.  We don't place dogs where they will be "outside only" dogs as Chinooks do better with a lot of contact with their humans. Your Chinook doesn't need to sleep on your bed, but we do ask that you give it access to the house.  We're not adverse to placing pups with people who are renters, but you must provide proof that your lease allows big dogs.

We won't place two littermates in the same home nor will we place a Chinook pup in a home where there is another dog that has been there less than one year.  We feel it's important that each dog be able to bond with its family and receive basic training before the next dog joins the household.  Getting two pups at once makes training very difficult as the dogs will tend to bond more to each other than to the humans in the household.

Chinooks do very well with children so we have no restrictions on the ages of family members.  We have had very successful placements in households where the adults are crazy enough to want to take on raising a pup at the same time as toddlers.  But EVERY dog, Chinook or otherwise, must be supervised AT ALL TIMES when it is with young children.

We've heard of breeders who will only place pups where there will be someone at home all day.  If that were always the case, Ginger, JoAnn, and Carie wouldn't have Chinooks.  Almost all adults have to work or at least be away from the house parts of the day.  We will want to know how long the pup will be alone each day while it's young and what your plan will be to meet it's needs while it's young but you don't have to be a retired millionaire to get a Chinook.

It's hard to believe that today we have more requests for pups than we could ever fill.  In the early days of the Chinook revival, we frequently had to keep pups for up to a year before we could find the right homes.  And that was as recent as 1992!  Now the Chinook appears on several Internet search engines that help people select the right dog for their situation.  Since the Chinook makes such a good family pet, we get many inquiries from this type of research.

We only breed one litter every year or two since the time and effort that goes into raising a litter properly is high.  It would be fun to quit our day jobs and devote all our time to raising pups but even with a large litter, we loose money -- yes, it costs more to raise a litter than we will ever get from selling pups.  So we all need to keep working if we are going to raise the occasional litter and that also means that we'll be exhausted by the time each litter leaves the nest.

Typically we start thinking about litters at least six months before any breeding is done.  Once a breeding is done, it's about a month before we know if our girl really is pregnant.  Not every breeding results in a successful pregnancy.  From the date of the breeding, it takes four weeks before we know if she's pregnant and nine weeks until pups are born, then they stay with their mom for the first eight weeks at minimum.

Going back to our dear friend Mother Nature, we can't commit to anyone to provide them with a pup out of a specific litter until the pups are past the critical first weeks.  Dogs have big litters because even with the very best care and medical attention, some pups may be lost in a litter.  The worst case we have had is loosing a whole litter to a sudden and lethal virus at three weeks.  We feel that it's best to not make commitments until we're sure we can meet them.  When the pups are a month old, we can make some preliminary decisions as to how many we'll be able to place.  Then we work on deciding how many to place in strictly pet homes where they will be spayed or neutered and how many we want to place in homes that are interested in showing their Chinook or possible future breeding.  We don't decide which pups will be considered pets and which will be considered show/breeding potential until they are at least seven weeks old.  Sometimes, if a pup has a white blaze on its face for example or some other minor cosmetic fault, we'll know right away that it will go to a pet home.  More typically we need to wait until they have grown a bit and can more around without tripping over their own four feet every other step.

So to answer your questions, you should probably plan on waiting at least six months to find and bring home a Chinook pup.  The best time to talk with breeders, and yes you should talk with more than one, is when they are planning their litters.  Then you will need to wait for the breeding to be done and successful, pups to be born and grow up healthy, and to go through evaluations.  It is possible that you could be a perfect and wonderful home for a Chinook but a given litter may not have just the right pup for you.  You can't just go out and find a Chinook pup for sale today.

As to the price of pups, most breeders charge between $800 and $1,000 for a pup and most breeders don't differentiate the price between pet and show/breeding quality pups.  The same amount of dog food and vet care goes into each pup so the cost of raising each is the same.  Some breeders will charge less than this and some will charge more.  But if a breeder is charging much more than this, I would ask why.  Are the sire and dam quite exceptional examples of the breed?  Do they have extensive performance and/or show titles?  The breeder should be able to give you specific information as to why the price of their pups is much different than other breeders.

Don't be surprised that both purebred and Chinook crosses are typically priced the same.  Chinook crosses are bred with exceptional care and are virtually identical to purebred in every way.  They will also be part of the UKC recognized Chinook Owners Association Cross Program and are not just random breedings with any other breed of dog.  Rain Mountain is not breeding Chinook crosses at this time -- all our dogs are purebred Chinooks -- but we are supporters of the COA Chinook Cross Program and hope to be more involved someday.

Male or Female?

Some people have very strong feelings about the gender of their dog.  "I've always owned females," "I want a male because it will be bigger,” or "I think a female will be more loving," are common comments we hear.  However we will be able to find the right pup for you quicker if you can be flexible as to the gender of your future Chinook.

Surprisingly we get more requests for pet quality females than anything else.  These are the most difficult to fulfill since we're always looking for females that will contribute future generations.  A male can father many, many pups but females have a more limited breeding life and contribute fewer offspring so we need to have more females in our overall breeding population than we do males.  We're very careful when deciding which females to place in pet homes and which to place in homes that are willing to raise even just one litter to help the Chinook breed's continued resurgence and survival.  We do place some females in pet homes but please be prepared to wait longer for a pet quality female if that is what you simply must have.

Another note on the differences we see between males and female Chinook temperaments.  If you ask any five Chinook breeders which are easier to live with, at least four will probably tell you that on average males are easier as pets.  My girl Chinooks love me dearly and would lay down their lives for me but my boy Chinooks are totally in love with me.  Chinook boys are big lovey-dovey goofs that just love Mom.  Chinook girls are very loving and sweet but frequently will put their own interests first.  "Sure I'll come since you called me but let me finish putting my make-up on first," is the female attitude.  We think female Chinooks are often smarter than males but a smart dog is not the easiest to live with.  Holly, the present grande dame of Rain Mountain is the smartest Chinook Ginger has ever encountered.  However she frequently uses her brains for the powers of evil, focusing on how to open doors and gates, get at the chicken bones in the garbage can, or just on manipulating you to give her more treats and bones.  On the other side of the spectrum is Thunder.  As a pup Thunder was told to not dump the garbage can or to open the kennel and yard gates.  So he doesn't.  Mom said not to.  When the girls have the contents of the garbage can spread out all over the living room floor, Thunder is probably sitting about ten feet back saying, "Mom is going to be mad at you.  You're not supposed to do that."

Since boys like Thunder are so agreeable, they can be easier to train.  When they are asked to sit, they sit in the fashion they were taught.  When a girl Chinook is asked to sit, she knows very well how to sit but has to decide if she wants to do it YOUR way or HER way.  And you may need to explain why you are asking her to sit rather than expecting blind obedience as you are more likely to get from a male.

Ginger and Carie both swear that if they were average Chinook owners and not breeders they would live with all neutered boy Chinooks.  JoAnn lives with a smart boy Chinook now so she is scared to death to add a female since it could possibly be even smarter!  (Yes, some of this is meant to be taken in the joking and light hearted manner in which it's written but you will find that Chinook boys make wonderful pets even for homes with small children.

If we were placing Labs, German Shepherds, or some other more populous breed, we would probably place almost all our pups as pets with spay/neuter agreements. But our history in Chinooks goes back to a time when there were fewer than a hundred alive. Without the work of many, many people the Chinook breed would not be alive today.

Here are a couple examples of Chinooks that led the double life of both family pets and show/breeding dogs:

Rorik went to live with Pam and Tim on their small farm when he was just a pup. They owned three older adult Chinooks and understood the unique situation of the breed. Though Rorik spent most of his time hanging out around their farm, he was co owned by his breeder and would occasionally spend a weekend at a dog show. Sometimes Pam would show him or, if she was tied up with a horse show (her true passion in life), Ginger would show Rorik. It wasn't long until he received his UKC championship. When he was old enough and had successfully completed all his health clearances, Rorik had a few hot dates with eligible Chinook girls in the area and sired a few litters. By the time he was four, it was decided that he had enough children and he was neutered.

Having an intact male Chinook as a pet was so easy that Pam and Tim are now raising Rodion, one of Rorik’s grandsons. Once again, they co own him with an established Chinook breeder and again, depending on the day, Rodion will either be shown by Pam (or possibly one of her young sons) or his co owner, Susan Fletcher. “I wish I had known years ago that breeders were so willing to have people like us work with them,” says Pam. “We got a great dog that had been bred and raised with care and we got a lot of help with him too. Before Rorik, I thought I would have had to pay thousands of dollars for a show quality dog. Instead we got a great pet and were able to help out the Chinook breed.”

*****

Stephanie and Tom were excited to get a Chinook and by virtue of only living a mile away from Ginger, they were able to spend a lot of time with the pups as they grew up. They fell madly in love with Misha, a big, light gold pup. Misha was considered a show/breeding quality pup by virtue of her great bone structure and movement. Rather than taking one of the other pups in the litter, Stephanie and Tom decided that they would contribute a litter of Chinook pups. (Their kids had been active in 4H raising rabbits so raising little creatures was nothing new at their house.) When Misha was two and had completed her health screens, a suitable “husband” was found for her and the result was a litter of ten pups. Ginger helped with the delivery of the litter and day-to-day details of raising the pups and also screened potential homes for Stephanie and Tom. After the pups had all left for their own homes, Misha was spayed and went back to her life as a full time family pet.

*****

In both these cases, the owners worked closely with other Chinook breeders in their area to learn the basics of dog breeding so they didn't need to feel like they were doing this all on their own. They had help with showing, choosing mates, and placing pups, along with guidance on health issues.

If you feel you could help the Chinook community, think about whether you could take on a potential show/breeding quality pup. Rain Mountain charges the same amount for all pups so price is not an issue in this decision. If you're interested, you may want to start slowly and have an intact male rather than a female. Having a boy with occasional “dates” is easier and less time consuming than raising litters of pups, no doubt about it. Remember that when we are talking pups, we are talking about show/breeding POTENTIAL – we don't know until the dog has passed its health screens if it actually is going to have potential as a breeding quality dog.

Since there are more people looking for Chinook pups than there are pups available, you might find that you can locate a pup quicker if you are willing to work with a breeder and take a show/breeding potential pup. When we are flooded with requests for pups, people who are willing to help with future breedings can sometimes move up in priority. This goes back to our primary goal in having a litter of pups in the first place – we want to improve the breed and secure its place for years to come -- so finding people to help is of the utmost importance.

The difference between what is a show/breeding potential pup and what is pet quality is a matter of very small detail. Usually it comes down to very fine points visible only to an experienced breeder and even then it's the proverbial crap shoot. Perhaps a small white mark is visible where none should be making it a pet quality pup. Perhaps the balance of bone to height and length is so perfect that it sets the pup apart from the rest, making it show/breeding potential. We never know with 100% certainty if the pup will grow up to meet the potential it shows at eight weeks old. Probably half the pups we think might have potential drop out by the time they are adults for some reason or other. This makes it even more important that a significant number of pups get placed in homes where they will be kept intact until they are old enough for a final decision to be made.

Please don't think that we only place pups in show/breeding homes. That's not the case at all and we would be pretty arrogant if we thought that every pup we bred was totally perfect. We just want you to understand that we're always open to working with people who are interested in helping us with Chinooks of the future. Every pup in a litter won't exhibit the traits we want in our show and breeding dogs. But it is our policy to place pet pups in pet homes and show/breeding potential pups only in homes that will keep them intact for future evaluation. And if this discussion has confused you to no end, give a shout and we'll talk more.

Please also don't be surprised that when the pup is placed with you, one of our names and yours will both appear on the registration papers for the first few years. If the dog is sold with the agreement that it will be spayed or neutered, we sign over full registration and ownership to you when that is completed. If the dog is judged to be of breeding potential, we sign off on the registration when the terms of our agreement concerning breeding issues are fulfilled. You'll find this to be a typical arrangement with most Chinook breeders and is done to protect the integrity of our bloodlines.  This also means that even though we're breeders, we can live in our suburban homes with two, three or maybe four dogs and still maintain the vitality and diversity of our bloodline.

All pups are permanently registered with the United Kennel Club (UKC) prior to leaving Rain Mountain.  Pups are eligible for listing (which is different than registration) with the American Kennel Club's Foundation Stock Service (AKC FSS).  At this time the Chinook is eligible to participate in all UKC activities but only in some AKC performance activities so our focus is still primarily on UKC.  UKC allows only two people's names to appear on the formal registration, one of which will be Rain Mountain and one of which will be one member of your family.

When a Rain Mountain Chinook is placed with you, we will have a signed ownership agreement that details health guarantees and all expectations as far as breeding or spay/neuter. Each is tailored to fit that specific placement. Don't worry about it. No one has ever questioned anything in the agreements to date.  You can see a sample agreement by clicking here. This agreement is your proof of actual ownership and bill of sale. UKC registration papers are NOT proof of ownership.

As awkward as it sounds, we don't take reservations on pups except for serious inquiries on breeding potential pups from specific litters. The best thing for you to do is to keep in touch with us on a regular basis. Talk with a number of Chinook breeders if possible. The best time to find a pup is when the breeder is getting ready to breed the litter or has just confirmed that a pregnancy is certain. Of course that means that you will need to wait for the pup to actually be born and spend the first two months with the mom dog learning about life.

For information on litters from other Chinook breeders, check out the Chinook Owners Association (COA) webpage at www.chinook.org.  All Chinook breeders have far more requests for pups than they can possibly fill.  Be prepared to wait six months to a year for a pup as of this writing. 

You're free to fill out an application at any time and it can be found at www.rainmountain.net/application.html. If you have filled out an application with another breeder, since we all ask many of the same questions, you can simply forward us a copy of that application. We have an organized group of Chinook breeders and tend to share information about good prospective homes.

We do not ask for deposits until pups are at least four weeks old.  If you sent us a deposit sooner, we would only blow it on something foolish like groceries or the electric bill.  Once we know for sure that we will be able to place a pup with you, we'll ask for a deposit and start working on specifics of our ownership agreement together.

After a litter has arrived and the pups are growing and learning from their mom, we start by sorting out which pups will have breeding and show potential and which will do best in pet homes. Essentially the litter is divided into two. The show/breeding potential pups will only go to homes that are interested in getting more involved in the breed. The pet quality pups will be placed in the best homes we can find.  Hopefully one of those homes will be yours.  We will publish updated information on this website, the Chinook Owners Association Breeders Directory, and on the various Chinook emails lists when we are ready to start committing that pups are available.  If we have any applications on file, we'll email those folks to let them know too.  So please check back with us frequently via email or by checking the website.

Breeding Plans for 2007/2008:  Grand Ch. PR Rain Mountain Kutaan Taaku is now retired from life as a mom, after raising two very nice litters.  Lolo and Taga's Oh No! Litter have all left home too.  Since I'm in the process of cleaning up the house and yard, getting ready to put it on the market, I have absoluty no plans for breedings here in my home right now.  After I'm settled into a new home, I'll update this page with new puppy plans as I will breed Lolo at least one more time.  Her bloodline is a perfect match for many of the males out there.  WoodsRunner X Hudson West, PR Rain Mountain Skagit Saber, Ch. PR Englewood Kanati, and many others are potential candidates. 

On the east coast, Ch. PR Bear Creek Riki's Echo of Rain, aka "Ginger," will be bred in June of 2007 if Mother Nature cooperates.  Intended sire is Lakeside Run Indiana Jones.  If you're interested in pups from this litter, please contact me as I'll be helping Karen Hoffmeister, Ginger's custodial owner, place the pups.

In 2008 we'll go through the process of applying for purebred status for Granite Hill X Ruby of Rain and Granite Hill Enati Rain (known as Helo).  Both these promising pups are fourth generation crosses that will be eligible for purebred status when they're two years old, presuming that they meet all the requirements.  After that, Helo will be at stud and we'll start stud shopping for Ruby.  Like Lolo, her bloodline will be a good match for many of the males in the West.

Stay tuned for details and in the meantime, check out the other possible leads for pups from the COA website.

Hopefully this information has helped you understand the process we go through placing pups. If you are still interested (and haven't fallen asleep getting to this point), please keep in touch and fill out an application. Contact us about a visit or perhaps meet us at an event such as a dog show or a weight pull. We want to feel like every pup we produce will go on to live with people who will become our friends.